As much as I'd love to say get out of there (which I really wish would happen), everyone knows that the second we leave, at this stage, Iraq will turn into clusterfuck. And everyone will blame...who else? (we deserve it)...us. And then it will become a breeding ground for terrorism, etc, and we will have to go back in again.

It's a nasty Catch-22.

Oh look another anti bush, we are liberal morons thread. Seriously go DIAF.

Why do we need this here on a gaming website? There are many other sites to go rant & rave about this.

Because some people like the feeling that they started a conversation. They don't get that feeling in real life.

Chill, it's in the off-topic section. And WTH darkside? Was that necessary?

Just because you oppose the Iraq war doesn't mean you are a "liberal moron". I was for the Iraq War when it began, but as things unfolded I lost my enthusiasm. It was hard for anyone to foresee the consequences of modern day guerrilla warfare

Also Iraqs safer now than its been in years, no more nightly reports of bombings and gunfights. Its not like Americas sitting over there doing nothing,w ere pouring billions of dollars a year into Iraq to help restructure it and strenghten its democratically elected governmanet. Mishandled yes, getting better? Yes. Also is Iraq a fundamentally better place with a democratically elected government or with Saddam Hussein.

Me too! But what did I know about anything then  

P.S. It probably wasn't the best idea to make a thread like this seeing as how nasty off-topic topics can get, but w/e

Yeah, I was all gungho...even excited...about it. But then I realized things. It isn't even the whole "flawed intelligence" thing that bothers me, because it really doesn't. It's just the fact that although things have improved, it is going to be a decade-long commitment, if not longer, with billions of my tax dollars going down the drain while our economy is already in quite a deal of pain.

And even though the danger has decreased, there are still terrorist attacks...and several of my close buddies are deployed there, and it really makes me worried.

I agree with FlyingNinja77 with this statement. I support the Iraq war and still do, I do think the Iraq war was handeld poorly in the opening but we have improved so far. What some people seem to forget is that rebuilding a country that was used to having a dictator takes alot of time and money to rebuild into a democracy. Now the problem is that will the Iraqys embrace this or fall back into the hands of another dictator? (Example: Al-sadr)

its been 5 years what the hell arew you people still doing there go home let the iraqs sort out there own bloody problems

I've never been one to judge too quickly another country w/o getting extencive evidence before stating my opinion. Therefore I did a quick search on teh internetz (and combined it with knowledge I already have about Iraq and its tolls) and found some very interesting stuff out there. I will make a comparison of life in Iraq before US invasion and after (not getting into the facts it was illegal war and such).


before Iraq invasion:
One president in 24 years (Saddam Husein).

Civilian casualties estimated between 150.000 and 1.250.000 (by some resources 70-150 civilians/day died in Iraq during his regime).

Iraq was an independent country under dictatorship of a local citizen supported by massive military (tho outdated, it was still effective in keeping citizens of the Iraq in total obedience).

Most of the infrastructure worked (badly but it did) meaning you could get a treatment in the hospital, get licence for building or whatever you needed (granted with much trouble and the service provided would be poor at best, but it was still a service).


now lets see how things are going since the war started:
After total occupation of Iraq, US instated puppet government that consisted of people who they knew escaped from Saddam's regime. NO knowledge necessary for leading the country or any ministry was required. That government lasted shortly and was after its mandate incarcarated on account of extencive corruption (the ones who didn't flee the country before police could get a hang of them). After that new government was put in charge through elections (following the same pattern as the government before), but new government, while still undisputedly loyal to US is very cautious about allowing their corruption to emerge on the light, so they try not to leave any "loose ends" after them, pretty much resulting in treating civilians like Saddam did (only on a much smaller scale).

Now, civilian casualties since the beginning of war are estimated on 120.000 to 1.225.000 depending if you wish to believe western media or scientific researches and polls conducted by eminent western institutes on several occasions (whoever you believe that's somewhat the same amount Saddam managed to pile up for 24 years of his regime, only in this case the time needed to result in that many deaths is several times smaller).

Iraq is an occupied country split on several parts owned by local warlords or governors (all still accepting US superiority and following their orders, but dealing on most interior and exterior matters on their own). The estimated potential value of Iraq oil reserves are $6.400.000.000.000 (yes, that many zeroes). Most of oil platforms/rigs/drills are now in private property of large US oil suppliers (most of them sold to US companies by Kurds living in the northern part of Iraq that use most of the money they got from Americans to supply their insurgency efforts in Turkey).

Infrastructure that existed before Iraq invasion sustained heavy damage and it is estimated that between 20 and 50 % of it is obliterated. However, US government started projects mostly called "rebuilding Iraq" that had for its primary and only objective to replace old and destroyed infrastructure with new (and better in every possible way) infrastructure. The project started shortly after coalition forces managed to establish total territorial control over Iraqi soil. At the beginning the project was supervised by US government that made contracts with US construction companies for building massive infrastucture that would be several dozen times better than it could ever be under Saddam's regime.
Unfortunately, the corruption was not only in Iraq puppet government, but also in US government (some say it was even more present on US side of the deal). The contracts rarely ended up with competent companies that had the ability and manpower to take on such a task. Instead most contracts went to companies that had nothing to do with building (for eg. one contract for building a massive hospital complex went to a company working with flower arrangements!!!), mostly because the owners of those companies were supporters to US government or had strong ties with parts of it (owner of the same flower company made an ample donation of $35.000.000 to Bush's presidential campaign... ofc. the flower business was just another ruse..). The companies that got the contracts legally based on their competence went to Iraq only to find the war still pretty much going on and that their workers die like flies due to terrorist or insurgent attacks. Not to mention that most of contractors dropped out and didn't fulfill their contracts due to grossly underestimation of amount of money, resources and whatnot necessary to rebuild Iraq (for eg. Petterson construction company (or something like that, forgot the name, and i found that data quite a while ago) had a contract to build 176 hospitals throughout Iraq. They managed to build 6 of them before running out of funds that US government gave them, and ultimately dropping out from contract. When US government saw how catastrophic were the results of their efforts to rebuild Iraq they gave up, and all of the money they intended to use to rebuild Iraq they gave to Iraqi government which led to before said corruption (also we cant forget the corruption inside US government and its supporters: there are $24.000.000.000 missing or unaccounted for and that is only since project started and before giving resources to Iraqi government).

Last, before US invasion, there was water and power supply in capitol and most parts of the country. Nowdays, power supply is available only 1/2 a year on average, and water is even more rare than that.
Now, remember we are talking about Baghdad here, can you imagine how the things are going in some cities with minor importance to occupation government ? (this sentence is just my speculation not based on any facts, i did not try to find any facts about water or power supply outside Baghdad)


Now, could any one of you people claiming that life in Iraq is better explain me please how exactly did the situation get better since the occupation started ? The way I see it it went from abyssimal to hell... Oh, and I do agree that if you do leave the situation could get only worse. Don't get me wrong based on my previous statements, those were just hard based facts about the life in Iraq before and after occupation. Things in Iraq are getting better each day (for eg. average civilian death toll is approx 1/2 of what it was in first few months of occupation, and its getting smaller, the infrastructure is getting built and maybe in few years it will be as efficient as it was before occupation)... But the cost US soldiers, US citizents, and most of all Iraqi civilians payed for better life (IF the US decides to stay in Iraq) are way too high, not to mention that the whole goal of it was to get some rich people even richer. I have to wonder how could a "free" country allow this kind of monstrosity to happen, and what i certainly can't get my head wrapped around is how can anyone that has ANY idea whats happening there support the whole thing...

However, there are limits, namely no overtly political or inflammatory topics.

Just looking at the OP, it's a loaded statement and he seems to only want to stir others into posting about it, rather than discussing it himself. As such, I don't see a need for this thread here. If you guys want to take it over to JoeUser, or PM08, you're more than welcome; the posters there love this kind of stuff.